Hello Ultrashockers,

Next week, the 2Advanced Studios team has been asked to meet with the Adobe After Effects team in order to have an open discussion about how After Effects can be impoved, and more importantly, how it can be improved to work better with Flash 8.

It is rare that the actual developers of a particular software invite the users of the product to have a round-table discussion about how to improve it across the board. So I would like to take this opportunity to solicit opinions from the design community about this topic so that you can be heard as well, and it is not only the opinions of 2A that are being put forth. Your voice is just as important as ours.

The topic is this: How can After Effects be improved to integrate better with Flash 8? Are there workflow improvements that can be made to make your life easier? Are there features that would help you better deliver content for the web without involving 3rd party compression software? Are there enhancements that can be made to vector output engine of After Effects that would help you port your animations easier to Flash?

2Advanced wants to hear what you have to say, so that we can relay these ideas, suggestions, and recommendations straight to the Adobe After Effects team themselves.

Looking forward to hearing from you all.

-Eric Jordan
-President, 2Advanced Studios
-www.2advanced.com

[n88n]

Well I am going to add my 2 cents on this even though I have no business doing so. My comments are from a complete novice who understands zero about after effects.

I feel they should take some steps to make the program easier to jump in and learn. I was able to open flash and just start playing and learning, but this was not the case for me with AE. I open that prgram and was totally lost with no idea where to start. The program is very intimidating.

I wish was proficant at AE so I could offer specifics or better comments about how to make it better, but I think this post is still somewhat valid.

just make it easier to learn.

[roldamog]

first thing to come in my mind :
the easing curves in AE are stranges, they should make it more intuitive.
i really like the way they are in flash 8...

[Overground]

i wish it were a true hand shaking app with Flash... Sort of like Fireworks is with flash. Exporting i guess would be the biggest improvment. Also it would be neat if it were even set up a bit more like flash, the timeline etc. Something else would make it dual monitor support, for example... i cannot drag my render preview window onto my sparate monitor, only the tool bars. i know the last part got nothing to do with flash, but it always botherd me. You say its cool that they came to you for feedback, well its cool you came to us.

[derbman]

I think Adobe should try to think of ways to minimize output from after effects, so that swf export can be possible. And if an .aep document as an .fla

[war2]

taking it straight of the edge right away

i would love for AE to have a feature like xStream which let´s you work with infinite(3d scenery app) directly inside of max/maya/c4d/lw, no plugin or so you realy work with the infinite application directly inside of one of those 3d apps if you have infinite and the xStream plugin installed.

So what i would like to see is ae embracing flash even more letting us work with ae directly inside of flash without having to jump back and forth, makes export etc completely moot.

xStream example

[v1q]

i agree with n88n, ae is just waaaay hard to understand, its not intuitive at all. i know this is not really a comparison, but premiere is just very easy to move and easy to understand. all the common shortcuts are used (alt, ctrl, shift) and its really easy to work with it, drag&drop and so on. so i think they should mainly improve usability, then the integration with flash comes naturaly.

[Obi_Wasabi]

Hi,

This is probably like wishing for a date with Eva Mendez, but if the .aep would export as a layered .fla, life would be grand. Something like psd->fla.

[nrg]

Thanks Eric for bringing this topic to Ultrashock! Please let us also know how that open discussion went.

Here's a little list I'm thinking of.
[list=1][*]The ability to import a Flash timeline into AE. I do a lot of previsualisations in Flash, and instead of having to render a Vector or Bitmap stream to use in AE, it would be nice to have all my still editable objects ready in AE, instead of having to recreate everything over and over again.
[*]Please put the Flash 8 Video Encoder inside the AE Render Engine asap. I don't see any reason why I have to export to any other format first, while I want an On2 VP6 FLV file in the first place. It's so frustrating to do the work double all the time and setup multiple batchlists in different programs if you're dealing with a lot of videofiles.
[*]Easing of Keyframes indeed needs a simplified version for people who are not used to the advanced Bezier curve editors.
[*]Newbies definately can be helped out with some wizards to setup complex tasks / settings.
[*]I personally would like to see texts effects wizards, where you can see text effects on the fly, rather then go to Bridge or the preview GIFs. Right now, the text effects engine is extremely powerfull, but makes it also hard to use or to correct simple settings in some cases (you'll have to search extensivly for that ONE value sometimes to finetune your effects). Remember KPT Show? That's the probably one of the best text effects preview systems I have ever seen. That should save most users a lot of time.[/list=1]

[lunibin]

Not sure if it would be possible but exporting 3D layers with vector data to flash would be nice.

[MikeDuguid]

Ideally, import of swfs (in particular swfs with fully actionscripted motion) would be flawless. Right now, if I have a scripted motion swf, I have to import to director, render to avi, re-import to aftereffects..

It would also be cool if the scripting languages in aftereffects was extended to include actionscript which I imagine shouldn't be too difficult as it utilises javascript already.

I also second the suggestion for direct flv rendering to on2, if necessary you could have an optional plugin like squeeze

[olsonjj]

Pleae Please Please... do NOT dumb down AfterEffects to be more like Flash --- make Flash more like AfterEffects, unless you make a completely new product (or revive an old one). Sorry to everyone who wants AfterEffects to be easier, but AE is far superior to Flash when it comes to control. Editing of keyframe data and f-curves in AE provides so much control. Yes -- there is a learning curve, but its worth it. An AE timeline in Flash would rock.

If Adobe doesn't want to mess with the Flash timeline, make an AfterEffects Elements package , aka "LiveMotion Reborn", that is a slimmed down, much cheaper, and that has direct support for Flash by exporting to the FLA file format. Personally, I liked LiveMotion, although it didn't create very efficient SWF files, and coding AS was horrible.

[edited to fix spelling mistake]

[urbansory]

With this merger, it's more likely Adobe will make a unified interface, to help with the work flow. Those familiar with AE won't have problems, but those that are not as fortunate may be left behind slightly. Maybe an option to toggle the interface for the first version after this merger, then the next release an interface that will be the future interface.

The timeline rendering in AE sucks, I would hate to see that in Flash. The export queue sucks too, needs to be improved greatly. Either the ability to adapt to our normal export tendencies, or give better option so we don't have to go in and reconfigure a ton of things just to export something.

This opportunity is very rare, congrats and I think we all can look forward to a great product in the near future.

And see when they plan to drop a new Photoshop for the new Intel Macs, i want one, but i don;t see the point until I can get my software to run on it. Congrats again.

[jaybirch]

Cool opportunity, good luck.

1) I think the ability to import camera movements from AE to Flash would be great. Flash would need a Z axis, something it's been lacking for too long.

2) It would be good if masking in Flash worked the same as AE, AE masking techniques are so much better.

3) The abilty to export layered .fla's would be very nice. Idealy, you would be able to set compression rates for each layer/comp.

[dimamel]

I've worked extensively with both flash and after effects on countless projects as well as a slew of other compositing applications such as shake, digital fusion and flame.

It seems that at this point the only thing that after effects lacks is the ability to bring in vector data straight from flash (swf) – which is only a concern if you are doing something for the web.

Aside from that, AE is a very powerful and a simple to use application. If you’ve used flash and photoshop, adapting to AE is smooth.

Just to comment of "urbanstory" 's feedback - after effects does have a very powerful timeline preview. Just hit the 0 num pad key. Also keep in mind that there should be no comparison between the way that you scribe through flash timelime comparing to AE. AE needs to make a billion more calculations due to the complexity of the layers/3D layrs, filters, blanding modes etc...

[Stipd]

I think, ESPECIALLY since adobe runs both flash and AE (even Photoshop) that the programs should all be linked together almost like plugins. Where you're basically running all three apps in the same window. You could buy them all seperate, but when you buy another, ie. if you buy both flash and ae then they are basically connected and other features are available and they're almost one program. Obviously, AE is primarily for video, so the programs (if both owned on the same comp) could still be ran individually.... It makes sense in my head, and I feel like I could design it myself with all the thoughts I have on it. haha, but I hope that helped you some. That's awesome that they asked you that, what a huge honor. I just turned 18 and hope someday someone would ask me the same. Or rather, me be the one asking Good luck with the meeting.

[jaybirch]

Also, AE style filter plugins for Flash would be amazing.

[pgnz]

a Better scripting interface in AE would be great although the one in flash isnt great at least you get a windowed interface to create complex scripts. Also if it could understand actionscript as well as the AE syntax it would be fabulous to be able use a motion script in both AE and Flash and for it to work the same in both.

Importing of FLA files would be awesome and be able to maintain the actionscript, layers and library assets, movieclips as composites.

My thoughts anyway.

[teminowi]

Originally posted by olsonjj
Pleae Please Please... do NOT dumb down AfterEffects to be more like Flash --- make Flash more like AfterEffects, unless you make a completey new product (or revive an old one). Sorry to everyone who wants AfterEffects to be easier, but AE is far superior to Flash when it comes to control. Editing of keyframe data and f-curves in AE provides so much control. Yes -- there is a learning curve, but its worth it. An AE timeline in Flash would rock.

I wholeheartedly, 100% agree. This thread makes me sad, because it seems that everyone is anxious to get AE to behave and perform more like Flash, when AE is the superior product when it comes to control. For those of you who say AE is not intuitive, that is probably because you used Flash first. For those of us who used AE first, Flash is not intuitive at all, and takes away a significant amount of control that we're used to.

I hope the committee at 2Advanced knows this much. Please, please do not take away the tremendous timeline control that AE offers.

Originally posted by teminowi
I wholeheartedly, 100% agree. This thread makes me sad, because it seems that everyone is anxious to get AE to behave and perform more like Flash, when AE is the superior product when it comes to control. For those of you who say AE is not intuitive, that is probably because you used Flash first. For those of us who used AE first, Flash is not intuitive at all, and takes away a significant amount of control that we're used to.

I hope the committee at 2Advanced knows this much. Please, please do not take away the tremendous timeline control that AE offers.

Relax. This thread isn't about changing AE's structure completely. It is about creating a better collaboration between the two programs. Let's save the drama and continue with the great suggestions like the ones above.

I'm quite sure Adobe knows what they are doing and will not "dumb down" any of their software.

[urbansory]

[i]Just to comment of "urbanstory" 's feedback - after effects does have a very powerful timeline preview. Just hit the 0 num pad key. Also keep in mind that there should be no comparison between the way that you scribe through flash timelime comparing to AE. AE needs to make a billion more calculations due to the complexity of the layers/3D layrs, filters, blanding modes etc... [/b]

I'm looking for realtime rendering, no need to render it out, I'm well aware of what AE does over Flash. As Flash gains more features, more calculations might be needed to show those new filters and future filters. It's realtime now, i would just like it to stay that way.

[hakkisak]

well, as a few people have said, i love AE the way it is, dont change AE as a program, cos i found it the easiest program to pick up and use out of any software package.

for features i agree with all the ideas put forward by jaybirch

[web26]

if flash also has a effects gallery like AE that would be WOW also it will be easier to us' and also add some 3d modelers in
flash like swift3d love it !

[satchmo511]

Originally posted by hakkisak
well, as a few people have said, i love AE the way it is, dont change AE as a program, cos i found it the easiest program to pick up and use out of any software package.

I fully agree. AE rocks. AE was meant for video and film. Please keep it that way. The timeline is superior.

The only thing that might make AE cooler is to make it more vector friendly. Not sure what that means, but "vector graphics are cool."

[NewEzra]

There are lots of great comments in here, and we can't wait to meet with the guys from Adobe to pass the comments on. I'm going to throw out just a few of my ideas and suggestions just to see if any of them gets other people thinking.
[list=1][*]I would love to see Flash adopt some of the timeline concepts from AfterEffects such as the ability to expand down an individual layer to control each parameter through keyframes. ie. You'll have keyframe control over x, y, rotation, color, effects, size, etc.[*]Not many people are using AfterEffect's scripting engine to automate sequences. Since the current code is based on JavaScript standards, why not simply convert it to a language built upon ActionScript and it's ECMAScript-standard. Of course, you couldn't include access to the full list of classes, but having an extended version of AS to generate animations, particles, automate clip movement, etc. would be very powerful, and it would help bringing #3 into reality.[*]AfterEffects should have the ability to import an FLA that becomes like a composition. It has the ability to retain all of the layers and animations included. Importing an FLA would also give you the ablity to have access to the file's library to reuse any vector graphics/movie clips.
-or-
Build the Flash Player into AE and when you import a SWF it will compile the clip together as one composition that is full of vector information. You might not have control over the timeline, but at least it all is playable - even any animations within MovieClips. Of course this would come with limitations that would restrict interactivity.[*]Give the Flash IDE the power of 3d. I'm not talking about being able to create 3d models or texture mapping surfaces, but simply give us the control over the z axis and camera control like in AfterEffects. Imagine being able to select a layer in Flash as a 3d object and being able to animate a camera through the objects. Especially with the power behind ActionScript Virtual Machine 2 (FP8.5+) there's no reason why this couldn't be a reality.[*]Any AfterEffects compositions that purely deal with vector animations (built off of .AIs or .SWFs) should have the option to be exported as pure SWF vector animations.[*]Flash should have the ability to import a PSD file just like AE. You would then have the ability to import a particular layer or the entire PSD as one solid composition or image.[/list=1]

[olsonjj]

bluebox_d-

#1 -- Agree
#2 -- Agree again. I'd love to see all of Adobes/Macromedias applications adopt ECMAScript for coding.
#3 -- AE should definitely be able to import and play a FLA file.
#4 -- I am mixed on this one. The flash player is much improved but Z-axis control could quickly kill playback and that is one thing we can't lose with Flash.
#5 -- I think you can do that now, assuming that its 100% vector and no bitmap filters have been applied.
#6 -- PSD support would be nice, but I'd also like to see Illustrator support with support for layers as well since it is the better vector app and also supports bitmaps. Currently, I use Fireworks for my Flash drawing because it has the best mix of vectors and bitmaps and works great with Flash.

[rayboyd]

Not sure if these have been mentioned but......

I would like to see native file support between the 2 programs.

and

The after effects properties panel - where you can basically animate any property of an object on the timeline - something like this in flash would be great!

RB

[sherali]

AE interface needs some improvement.

For example panels in AE should be collapsable/expandable like in flash.

[Mounty]

Looping particle effects

[CheechWizz]

Nothing to do with flash, but I would love it if they made the layers on the timeline dockable. So I'd be able to pull one out and sync animations with other timelines.
Now it's a bit hard coz I can usually open only 2 or 3 timelines at the same time before the timeline window fills up.
And you could sync different comp's together more easily.

[AVisioN]

Looping particle effects

Ohhhh yes! Man - so true.

And the ability to export/record scripted animations to/for AE.

[mellowlab]

Originally posted by hakkisak
well, as a few people have said, i love AE the way it is, dont change AE as a program, cos i found it the easiest program to pick up and use out of any software package.

for features i agree with all the ideas put forward by jaybirch

yea I agree on this one.

One feature that I would love in flash is feather masking, like we have in AE. Just awsome to use.

[B-Rhapsody]

Ive been away from months and God, when i saw this thread made by EJ i was like WHOA!

ive been using AE for quite sometime already. Im very much happy with it though.

you guys should get plugins for your AE. AE without plug-ins is boring. Well at least it saved my ass from my boss somemonth ago.; I did a 8 min Video presentation in 3 straight days without sleep. They very much liked it though but believe me, if i were to ask myself, i couldve done better

now im on MAC. im crawling with Final Cut Studio damn... OT.. sorry

[NewEzra]

Originally posted by sherali
AE interface needs some improvement.

For example panels in AE should be collapsable/expandable like in flash.

AfterEffects 7 features a HUGE improvement in the interface.

For a preview go to day 2, then the forth icon from the left...
http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia...max2005/video/

[n0mmo]

Originally posted by olsonjj
Pleae Please Please... do NOT dumb down AfterEffects to be more like Flash --- make Flash more like AfterEffects

Thank You!
Finally an intelligent comment! I know that AE is hard to get into, but once you pick up a book or two and run through it a bit you come to see how powerful this program is.

Someone commented on making the timeline more like Flash... Woa. That would be about the most tragic thing ever. Were that to happen I think I'd walk away from computers altogether. Hell, my toaster is easier to use than AE, why not just have one push button and a little slider? Seriously my main complaint w/ Flash is it's timeline, it's just shy of being useless. Dragging keyframes shouldn't hurt so much, and animating multiple parameters separate of each other? Not gonna happen outside of the Tween class or placing a movie clip w/in a movie clip (which is cumbersome and impractical).

So back to the topic how can we make AE integrate w/ Flash? I don't really see why it'd want to. In general you aren't using vectors in AE. AE is a video production tool. What you should be looking to do is scrapping the Flash interface in favour of the more powerful AE one.
Otherwise revive livemotion and give it the Scripting power of Flash.

I guess if you really must work on integration, give AE a set of vector tools and a palette to manage shapes. That's about all you could do without killing a beatifully funcitoning machine in favour of a dummyware interface.

[littledude]

This may have already been touched on and I am using an old version of AFX so they may have this ability.

It would be nice to do a vector based output straight to .swf so that the file isn't a bunch of png or jpg files int eh swf but all editable items.

Probably not possible and if it is has already been done as a filter or add on. If anyone knows where I can get something similar, that would be great.

[jondanao]

My wishes:

1. If I were to do scripted animations in Flash, I could export the animation to video just like AE scripting.

2. Make AE's timeline similar as Flash's.

[nrg]

I guess most of our wishes have been fullfilled TODAY with the announcement of After Effects 7.

Say hi to:
- Redesigned, unified user interface
- Macromedia® Flash® Video (FLV) export
- Timesaving Animation and Behavior Presets plus project templates
- Real-time, high-fidelity OpenGL support

More new features here: http://www.adobe.com/products/aftere...features2.html

[nrg]

Definately still missing in 7.0: Layer Folders!

While the 'Shy switch' is a handy little gimmick, it still can't compete with Photoshop alike Layer Folders. Please put this in the next .0.1 update! With over 100 layers in one complex project, it becomes rather frustrating to scroll vertically all the time

[Deveren]

First of all I would like to thank Eric Jordan for bringing this too Ultrashock for our opinions.

Next, this is how I use flash and AE together when designing for the web. I first do my layout in Photoshop and then I separate the Photoshop layers into different sections so I can work with them independently of each other. I then take the part that I want to animate or add an effect to like shine, lux, or a text effect into AE.

Once I am in AE and I have the animation I want; I then export as an AVI which I then import into Sorenson Squeeze which then is exported into an flv which I can not really use in flash on a frame by frame basis, so I then take the flv from Sorenson Squeeze and use a program called Sothink which decompiles the flv into an swf.

I don’t know if my process is the way a lot of developers use the combination of AE and Flash but that is how I do it.

I think AE should be more focused on compression or integrating Sorenson Squeeze into AE. Also the ability to use more web functionality in AE for layout and design and using some type of engine to export to a hybrid flash and HTML document like Fireworks exports to Dreamweaver; the ability too do this would help the Web development community be able to create more interesting sites. I myself like to create one of kind designs and give my clients a unique site that helps me as a developer get more clients and I have been able to do this with AE and Flash together.

It just takes a long time, and I would like away to shorten the process.

Thank you,

Deveren