mProjector vs. Zinc

2008-04-25

Does anyone here have experience with both apps and can comment on strengths and weaknesses of the two? I have been using Zinc for a while, but just using mProjector at my new job. I haven't used it enough to compare to Zinc, and nobody here has used Zinc enough to compare to mProjector.

Thanks

This is about more than just me and my dream of doing nothing.

tiran · 2008-06-23 #2

Note: This compares Zinc V.3.06 to mProjector 3.1

Well, since this seemed to be a subject with limited information I'm going to write a little review. I just spent a few months building some desktop apps and used both of them pretty extensively. First, MDM Zinc gets the hands down nod if you need to use ActionScript 3 (mProjector does not support it yet). Also, Zinc has more functionality to offer, so if you see something in the Zinc commands that you don't in mProjector and you really need it...well thats an easy decision. With that said if you don't need or want to use AS3 - and mProjector offers all the functionality you will need, then you should positively use mProjector. Its by far an easier/more stable program to use, and it is installed as an extension. Because of that, you get inline code hints and the help docs inserted into your Flash help. Zinc can be a real pain to use as you have to constantly go outside of Flash for the documentation if you need it.

Some particulars:

Zinc:
The http class in Zinc, which allows you do download files, is really buggy compared to mProjector. It gives questionable numbers for total file size, and even worse, is prone to fail if you don't put a timer/delay in between file download calls. And when I say fail I mean completely crash your application. On the other hand, mProjector works silky smooth for such operations. I personally have decided to use mProjector for installers and downloaders even though it means I have to go back to AS2 as even with timers my Zinc downloaders act questionable on slower machines. Also, if you have scripts written in 2.5 (that works) and if you are downloading a file with spaces in it...it no longer works if you don't url encode the spaces in your call. Thats undocumented and killed me for an entire day.

You can't tell zinc to ignore a bad certificate when trying to load xml from an https site, which you can do in mProjector.

Building out an app is frustrating in Zinc as you have to check off all the classes you use in the app every time you build. Thats ok, but it doesn't save your settings, and worse gives you a buggy unsizeable window that you have to scroll through to check them off every single time you build. God I want to kill them for that. Found solution - you must select the classes in the extensions panel and they will auto select on build.

At the time of writing this, Zinc v3.06's support for the MouseWheel can be completely broken if you use transparent window mode with a centered app. I say 'can be' because it works on some machines for me with no difference in platform or OS version. Its documented as unfixed with no workarounds in Mdm's tech docs.

There is no way to trace out variables in Zinc v3. The debug window from 2.5 has been removed...it never really worked great anyway. Oddly enough though, they realeased v3 with a checkbox to launch it in debug mode which mdm has acknowledged actually doesn't do anything. If you want to trace values out at runtime, be prepared to make a custom mechanism using dynamic textfields to do so.

Zinc only supports 16 x 16 icons for your app..and as far as I can tell questionably applies even those.

Apps seem to have higher processor usage and run chunkier than mProjector.

You can't search the help docs..and that goes for the online live docs as well.

mProjector:
No AS3 ):

Smaller library of classes / methods

mProjector doesn't support the Flash MouseWheel listeners at all, but it has some easy to implement custom commands for making it work.

If you use a transparent movie with masks you have to use cacheAsBitmap = true on the whole movie..which causes anything not on a whole pixel to bounce around when there is animations going on (including rollOvers).

Doesn't overwrite files, you must check if it exists first, delete it and then write new. That was the one thing in Zinc that saved me a tiny bit of time. That could be good or bad I suppose.

Interface leaves a lot to desire

I guess I have a lot more to complain about with Zinc 3, but kudos to them for at least supporting AS3. It has certainly been at a cost though. I feel like the apps I built in it using basic functionality are somewhat unstable and heavier than simialar ones built in mProjector. Weird crashes, odd behavior from machine to machine. I just can't recommend it to anyone using AS2. Anyone feel free to correct or add to this. I will keep letting you know what I find as this seems to be a highly viewed thread with little input or answers.

Nutrox · 2008-06-23 #3

Depending on what your application needs to do, Adobe AIR is another option if you are using AS3. Personally I would look at that before Zinc or mProjector.

tiran · 2008-06-24 #4

I have looked at air and I don't think it is ready for the clients that I am working with. It's a large company with some fairly wary IT people and the fact that you have to install a completely differrent run time...and that you can't unbrand the installer immediately kills it for me. It just isn't known well enough by the masses for a company like this to feel comfortable telling all their employees to install it. When they do feel its something they really need, they will probably push the runtime out in an sms update..and thats not happening for a while. Also, can you edit the registry yet with AIR? I do a lot of registry editing.

Nutrox · 2008-06-24 #5

Unfortunately AIR can't access the system registry at the moment but hopefully this is something that Adobe will consider adding at some point, they seem to be overly security conscious at the moment which is both good and not-so-good depending on how you look at it. As I said though, it depends what you need the application to do. AIR would be my first choice if it was suitable, then mProjector, then Zinc. Despite all the hype the new version of Zinc got it is still extremely buggy and unstable, and personally I would only use it in one of those "oh god, if I must" situations.

PS: One thing to keep in mind is that the AIR Runtime can be distributed with AIR applications, so users will not need to go through a two-stage installation process.

uncleunvoid · 2008-10-20 #6

I started with Zinc some time ago and had to switch to mProjector, because Zinc was a nightmare to work with. The version of Zinc I had didnt support attachMovie and such , so doing a lot of runtime scripts was always a workaround. The display speed with a transparent window was just plain bad.

Generally even though Zinc looks sharper in terms of advertising the product. mProjector is easier to handle, does pretty much everything you need and once you work with it, the features all seem to be developed in a very stable manner. It also produced smaller file sizes.

I was thinking about AIR some time, but I have no idea, why the fudge they use a runtime that you have to download. I dont have to download a runtime for photoshop either... It remind me of konfabulator, which was the runtime predecessor of the OSX widgets (now yahoo widget engine)

I dont know what the real benefit of a software that you download in order to play another software should be.

if and only if you play MANY files of that type this makes sense (think music and video players) but not individual software.
everyone knows that developers like to use the latest version of a dev kit, which means, whenever new AIR apps will be develop, they will use the latest version, which means in turns if you download a game or something you will always have to download the latest version of the runtime. This is not helping the usual user at all,just makes things (including developing) more complicated.

But hey I am not a PC user who seem to love downloading new drivers for every piece of software they are using.

I like things stable and easy to use, I use mProj.

NOTE: that's just me

tiran · 2008-11-05 #7

I have some updates to this actually. I have, in the past few months, changed my opinions a bit. I have completely abandoned mProjector mostly because they can't seem to get a version out that supports AS3. In addition, Zinc has been patched a few times to fix a lot of the quirks I discussed (although they still have a huuuuge issue with the mouse wheel on transparent movies....its a known bug ).

As you said, mProjector is easy to work with, but that is mostly because it has been dummied down (and in their defense integrates well with Flash - ie. code hints and help files). Other than that though it is quickly becoming a dinosaur. The pain of working with Zinc is erased by the fact I can use AS3. Zinc is by far the more powerful app. The first month with Zinc is painful because you have to keep leaving the Flash IDE to look at help docs and finding errors can be a pain (You still can't trace from Zinc which is completely mind boggling to me). Once you start getting into Zinc though and learning its syntax it gets much smoother.

As for AIR, I don't even think it belongs in the same conversation. Its an entirely different beast. The apps I'm building have to be stand alone EXE's. I cannot push or suggest my clients download the AIR runtime for several reasons...Mainly this software needs to be entirely branded for the company I'm building for and it can't appear to rely on an Adobe environment. AIR will never be able to overcome that issue. Maybe someday, if the company I build for pushes out AIR Runtime as part of its standard build I can use it..but I don't that ever happening. AIR has a long way to go in that regards. Don't get me wrong, its a great product - but totally separate and not even a competitor to Zinc/mproj for me. I mean, anything can be good when you force users to install a new run time.

I should also note that Nutrox's last statement about AIR isn't necessarily true. You cannot distribute the run time without permission (per app) from Adobe. Apps that do that now are violating the license agreement.

Nutrox · 2008-11-05 #8

As previously mentioned it just boils down to what you need to do with the application. All three solutions have their pros and cons.

tiran · 2009-03-26 #9

Big update to this thread. Zinc is officially dead (for most things anyway). For the past week I have been using the mProjector 4 beta...and its dope. I was starting to doubt they would ever get out something that supported AS3, but they have and the wait was worth it.

http://www.screentime.com/labs/

BSMH · 2009-03-26 #10

tiran, why do you say that Zinc is officially dead? My company and I have been trying to decide which route to go.

tiran · 2009-03-26 #11

Because Zinc is a huge pain in the ass. Don't get me wrong I have used it extensively over the last year and it can be effective. However, its file sizes are huuuge. It doesn't integrate at all with the Flash authoring environment (no code hints or code coloring for its functions), and last but definitely not least they have yet to come up with a solution for mouseWheel scrolling in a transparent app. So if your app is a custom shape and you want to use transparency, you pretty much can't use the mouse wheel. The official Zinc line on this is that its a native flash player bug. This is somewhat true - its a documented bug that the mouseWheel misbehaves on a web page with wmode set to 'transparent'. Thing is, mProjector has found a way to deal with this (or their software just works correctly). They also have custom mouse wheel function in case you have a problem with the native flash ones...but in the v4 beta the native mouse wheel listeners work fine for me.

The same disclaimer still exists for mProjectors functions / class packages. That is, Zinc has quite a bit more functionality options - so you should make sure there isn't something in Zinc you absolutely need before deciding. I can say without a doubt though that - after extensive use of both over the last year - mProjector will yield more reliable apps.

Should also mention that mProjector support is a far more personal experience than dealing with mdm.

tiran · 2009-03-26 #12

Oh ya...and the Zinc authoring environment is total crap. Its buggy, it has memory leak issues that will destroy your cpu while you have a project open. You have to choose every package you use in your project in the authoring environment before you publish the exe. mProjector you just import the classes in your code like you would do anything else. mProjector's authoring enviroment doesn't try to be anything to crazy and that simplicity is nice.

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	Ultrashock Forums > Flash > Third Party Tools • mProjector vs. Zinc


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	tiran	2008-06-23 #2
	Last edited by tiran : 2008-06-24 at 11:41. *Note: This compares Zinc V.3.06 to mProjector 3.1* Well, since this seemed to be a subject with limited information I'm going to write a little review. I just spent a few months building some desktop apps and used both of them pretty extensively. First, MDM Zinc gets the hands down nod if you need to use ActionScript 3 (mProjector does not support it yet). Also, Zinc has more functionality to offer, so if you see something in the Zinc commands that you don't in mProjector and you really need it...well thats an easy decision. With that said if you don't need or want to use AS3 - and mProjector offers all the functionality you will need, then you should positively use mProjector. Its by far an easier/more stable program to use, and it is installed as an extension. Because of that, you get inline code hints and the help docs inserted into your Flash help. Zinc can be a real pain to use as you have to constantly go outside of Flash for the documentation if you need it. Some particulars: Zinc: The http class in Zinc, which allows you do download files, is really buggy compared to mProjector. It gives questionable numbers for total file size, and even worse, is prone to fail if you don't put a timer/delay in between file download calls. And when I say fail I mean completely crash your application. On the other hand, mProjector works silky smooth for such operations. I personally have decided to use mProjector for installers and downloaders even though it means I have to go back to AS2 as even with timers my Zinc downloaders act questionable on slower machines. Also, if you have scripts written in 2.5 (that works) and if you are downloading a file with spaces in it...it no longer works if you don't url encode the spaces in your call. Thats undocumented and killed me for an entire day. You can't tell zinc to ignore a bad certificate when trying to load xml from an https site, which you can do in mProjector. Building out an app is frustrating in Zinc as you have to check off all the classes you use in the app every time you build. Thats ok, but it doesn't save your settings, and worse gives you a buggy unsizeable window that you have to scroll through to check them off every single time you build. God I want to kill them for that. Found solution - you must select the classes in the extensions panel and they will auto select on build. At the time of writing this, Zinc v3.06's support for the MouseWheel *can be* completely broken if you use transparent window mode with a centered app. I say *'can be'* because it works on some machines for me with no difference in platform or OS version. Its documented as unfixed with no workarounds in Mdm's tech docs. There is no way to trace out variables in Zinc v3. The debug window from 2.5 has been removed...it never really worked great anyway. Oddly enough though, they realeased v3 with a checkbox to launch it in debug mode which mdm has acknowledged actually doesn't do anything. If you want to trace values out at runtime, be prepared to make a custom mechanism using dynamic textfields to do so. Zinc only supports 16 x 16 icons for your app..and as far as I can tell questionably applies even those. Apps seem to have higher processor usage and run chunkier than mProjector. You can't search the help docs..and that goes for the online live docs as well. mProjector: No AS3 ): Smaller library of classes / methods mProjector doesn't support the Flash MouseWheel listeners at all, but it has some easy to implement custom commands for making it work. If you use a transparent movie with masks you have to use cacheAsBitmap = true on the whole movie..which causes anything not on a whole pixel to bounce around when there is animations going on (including rollOvers). Doesn't overwrite files, you must check if it exists first, delete it and then write new. That was the one thing in Zinc that saved me a tiny bit of time. That could be good or bad I suppose. Interface leaves a lot to desire I guess I have a lot more to complain about with Zinc 3, but kudos to them for at least supporting AS3. It has certainly been at a cost though. I feel like the apps I built in it using basic functionality are somewhat unstable and heavier than simialar ones built in mProjector. Weird crashes, odd behavior from machine to machine. I just can't recommend it to anyone using AS2. Anyone feel free to correct or add to this. I will keep letting you know what I find as this seems to be a highly viewed thread with little input or answers.

	Nutrox 17 Creative Assets	2008-06-23 #3
	Depending on what your application needs to do, Adobe AIR is another option if you are using AS3. Personally I would look at that before Zinc or mProjector.

	tiran	2008-06-24 #4
	I have looked at air and I don't think it is ready for the clients that I am working with. It's a large company with some fairly wary IT people and the fact that you have to install a completely differrent run time...and that you can't unbrand the installer immediately kills it for me. It just isn't known well enough by the masses for a company like this to feel comfortable telling all their employees to install it. When they do feel its something they really need, they will probably push the runtime out in an sms update..and thats not happening for a while. Also, can you edit the registry yet with AIR? I do a lot of registry editing.

	Nutrox 17 Creative Assets	2008-06-24 #5
	Unfortunately AIR can't access the system registry at the moment but hopefully this is something that Adobe will consider adding at some point, they seem to be overly security conscious at the moment which is both good and not-so-good depending on how you look at it. As I said though, it depends what you need the application to do. AIR would be my first choice if it was suitable, then mProjector, then Zinc. Despite all the hype the new version of Zinc got it is still extremely buggy and unstable, and personally I would only use it in one of those "oh god, if I must" situations. PS: One thing to keep in mind is that the AIR Runtime can be distributed with AIR applications, so users will not need to go through a two-stage installation process.

	uncleunvoid	2008-10-20 #6
	I started with Zinc some time ago and had to switch to mProjector, because Zinc was a nightmare to work with. The version of Zinc I had didnt support attachMovie and such , so doing a lot of runtime scripts was always a workaround. The display speed with a transparent window was just plain bad. Generally even though Zinc looks sharper in terms of advertising the product. mProjector is easier to handle, does pretty much everything you need and once you work with it, the features all seem to be developed in a very stable manner. It also produced smaller file sizes. I was thinking about AIR some time, but I have no idea, why the fudge they use a runtime that you have to download. I dont have to download a runtime for photoshop either... It remind me of konfabulator, which was the runtime predecessor of the OSX widgets (now yahoo widget engine) I dont know what the real benefit of a software that you download in order to play another software should be. if and only if you play MANY files of that type this makes sense (think music and video players) but not individual software. everyone knows that developers like to use the latest version of a dev kit, which means, whenever new AIR apps will be develop, they will use the latest version, which means in turns if you download a game or something you will always have to download the latest version of the runtime. This is not helping the usual user at all,just makes things (including developing) more complicated. But hey I am not a PC user who seem to love downloading new drivers for every piece of software they are using. I like things stable and easy to use, I use mProj. NOTE: that's just me

	tiran	2008-11-05 #7
	I have some updates to this actually. I have, in the past few months, changed my opinions a bit. I have completely abandoned mProjector mostly because they can't seem to get a version out that supports AS3. In addition, Zinc has been patched a few times to fix a lot of the quirks I discussed (although they still have a huuuuge issue with the mouse wheel on transparent movies....its a known bug ). As you said, mProjector is easy to work with, but that is mostly because it has been dummied down (and in their defense integrates well with Flash - ie. code hints and help files). Other than that though it is quickly becoming a dinosaur. The pain of working with Zinc is erased by the fact I can use AS3. Zinc is by far the more powerful app. The first month with Zinc is painful because you have to keep leaving the Flash IDE to look at help docs and finding errors can be a pain (You still can't trace from Zinc which is completely mind boggling to me). Once you start getting into Zinc though and learning its syntax it gets much smoother. As for AIR, I don't even think it belongs in the same conversation. Its an entirely different beast. The apps I'm building have to be stand alone EXE's. I cannot push or suggest my clients download the AIR runtime for several reasons...Mainly this software needs to be entirely branded for the company I'm building for and it can't appear to rely on an Adobe environment. AIR will never be able to overcome that issue. Maybe someday, if the company I build for pushes out AIR Runtime as part of its standard build I can use it..but I don't that ever happening. AIR has a long way to go in that regards. Don't get me wrong, its a great product - but totally separate and not even a competitor to Zinc/mproj for me. I mean, anything can be good when you force users to install a new run time. I should also note that Nutrox's last statement about AIR isn't necessarily true. You cannot distribute the run time without permission (per app) from Adobe. Apps that do that now are violating the license agreement.

	Nutrox 17 Creative Assets	2008-11-05 #8
	As previously mentioned it just boils down to what you need to do with the application. All three solutions have their pros and cons.

	tiran	2009-03-26 #9
	Big update to this thread. Zinc is officially dead (for most things anyway). For the past week I have been using the mProjector 4 beta...and its dope. I was starting to doubt they would ever get out something that supported AS3, but they have and the wait was worth it. http://www.screentime.com/labs/

	BSMH	2009-03-26 #10
	tiran, why do you say that Zinc is officially dead? My company and I have been trying to decide which route to go.

	tiran	2009-03-26 #11
	Because Zinc is a huge pain in the ass. Don't get me wrong I have used it extensively over the last year and it can be effective. However, its file sizes are huuuge. It doesn't integrate at all with the Flash authoring environment (no code hints or code coloring for its functions), and last but definitely not least they have yet to come up with a solution for mouseWheel scrolling in a transparent app. So if your app is a custom shape and you want to use transparency, you pretty much can't use the mouse wheel. The official Zinc line on this is that its a native flash player bug. This is somewhat true - its a documented bug that the mouseWheel misbehaves on a web page with wmode set to 'transparent'. Thing is, mProjector has found a way to deal with this (or their software just works correctly). They also have custom mouse wheel function in case you have a problem with the native flash ones...but in the v4 beta the native mouse wheel listeners work fine for me. The same disclaimer still exists for mProjectors functions / class packages. That is, Zinc has quite a bit more functionality options - so you should make sure there isn't something in Zinc you absolutely need before deciding. I can say without a doubt though that - after extensive use of both over the last year - mProjector will yield more reliable apps. Should also mention that mProjector support is a far more personal experience than dealing with mdm.

	tiran	2009-03-26 #12
	Oh ya...and the Zinc authoring environment is total crap. Its buggy, it has memory leak issues that will destroy your cpu while you have a project open. You have to choose every package you use in your project in the authoring environment before you publish the exe. mProjector you just import the classes in your code like you would do anything else. mProjector's authoring enviroment doesn't try to be anything to crazy and that simplicity is nice.